That is good to know. I guess it just seems like the numbers have been falling.
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That is good to know. I guess it just seems like the numbers have been falling.
Unfortunately the board meeting is 40+ miles from my house. :)
My suggestion is that cars run in the same heat as their competitors, like most other autox clubs and SCCA. Simple.
My only concern with rapid pax is that all competitors should be on as equal a footing as is possible. If someone's work assignment precludes them from getting all runs in the same heat, that's understandable (safety, event master, protest), but someone who has already worked or will work after the event ought to take all their runs in a single heat. Unless someone is trying to mix work and runs (like the President or timing-setup person often has had to in the past),what possible reason is there for taking runs in different heats, other than to gain a competitive advantage and win money? If a board member is called-away to handle something during runs, let them finish in the next heat. If that's not the motivation for spreading-out runs, then why not run in a single heat?
This question has been asked numerous times, and no one has given a clear answer yet other than "that's the way ER does it. I attended a board meeting last year, raised the exact same questions, listened to John Garcia threaten to sue any and everyone present, and was told that it would be looked-into and considered.
You're a good guy Andy, but I'd still like to know why things are done so differently in ER than elsewhere.
Fair points Ozmdd.
Robert - I'm not suggesting that pax runs be taken all-together, that is the luck-of-the-draw with the class heat. I'm saying that is is unfair for someone to take 1 or 2 runs early, adjust their car, watch some other runs, run a few more runs, adjust some more, let their codriver(s) take runs, wait till the end of the event, then take their PAX runs and win $$ every event.
In other clubs, effort is made to rotate the run/work from event to event so no class is running in the best/worst conditions repeatedlty. Its not hard to do; I sort it out myself every NTAXS event, and we have much larger classes to juggle. Some events you'll end-up running in the "best" conditions for your car/tires, and some events you won't. That's autox. I don't think anyone minds, so long as it seems to balance-out over time.
I got raw-timed by some crappy STS car at the Div on Sunday, and it might have been better driving, but it also might have had something to do with the 10 degree warm-up from 1st to 3rd heats. :) Since my class ran in the same heat, it only affected my pride.
Edit - BTW, I have been finishing in the PAX money for the last 6-8 months; this is not sour grapes.
As opposed to the crazy hot lapping @ NTAXS, BMW and PCA?
At the beginning of the season, one of the perks of prepaying with ER is that you can choose a permanent work assignment, like corner in the first heat.
So, those individuals that consistently run with ER, by putting their money where their mouth is by prepaying, get a perk.
The split run never bothered me because the mod drivers were the ones doing it and they aren't the speediest bunch anyway.
I like my perk of the permanent work assignment, but I would give it up if it would get more cars out, and maybe it would if the less commited did not feel like they always get the bad work/run assignment at ER events. I don't really know if it would make any real differance, seems like all the clubs have a hard time getting people out to Mineral Wells.
I am not sure that how we stage cars has anything to do with Mike's comments. Mike's concerns primarily regard the inequalities of running members of the same class in different heats.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofygrin
Goofy - you are correct its a different animal at those events. but EVERYONE runs the same way, and classes do run together. Also, you are allowed to delay your run to cool-down or tweak the car, so long as you finish your runs in the same heat. Not criticizing the format so much as the unequal application of that format.
I think the prepay perk is good, in terms of choosing a work assignment. I think it hurts the club to guarantee the same heat. Nothing wrong with rewarding paying members, but not in a way that is a competitive advantage. Working first, running second IS a competitive advantage, IMHO.
The SCCA prepay gets ya a fixed work assignment plus you run with your class.
I'll add that I see the NTAXS/BMW events as less rigid since there's no money or real season trophy on the line, so a bit of tomfoolery is ok.
Personally, from the ER side, I think that they are pretty flexible on some things (custom classes for clubs and that sort of thing) and the rapide pax "element of chance" (snowballs in my case) adds a different degree of fun. I never had any issue with the way the club was run under Gerry or Andy. I do have issues with Mineral Wells (it's too far and a cheesegrater on tires).
I see ER as a more laid back, high competition event... like a practice for SCCA events.
If I'd had a [competitive] Miata or S2k then the NTAXS would have been less like practice for me.
/thread derailed
Again, you keep grasping a straws at the expense of my club. Yes, we (NTAXS) will make the occasional consession for someone with a special need, and I would hope that ER, SCCA, BMW, and PCA would do the same. However, Mike's primary concern is that members of the same class running in different heats is a part of ER's general procedures. It is not a general procedure for the other clubs that you mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofygrin
BTW, I plan to attend the event. If I don't, it will not be because of ER's procedures or anything that they have or have not done. Regardless if I win or lose, I still enjoy the time behind the wheel and I find that worth the cost of entry. As Conecerned likes to say, it will have been the best autocross I attended all day.
I'm not saying that the NTAXS/BMW events aren't fun, good value or, IMO better value than SCCA and ER. You do have to admit that they are a touch more chaotic and are more loose and open since there's no classing issues, rigid rule structures, etc. For casual autox'ers the format is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
Stop thinking that I'm peeing on your baby. I always tell people to go to a BMW or NTAXS event rather than SCCA or ER. More runs, less $$, less crazy rules.
Warning more thread drift. But had to correct an inaccuracy.
This year's season trophy was very nice, just like last year's, and prior years. Several classes came down to the last event.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofygrin
When was the last BMW event you attended?
I'm glad Ken piped up so that we have someone other than ER to bag on.
So we will see you at the BMW events?Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadtrash
When my wife makes my allowance bigger. Currently, I only get $40 per week for lunch money.Quote:
So we will see you at the BMW events?
I could stand to skip a few lunches.
I have a trophy from every club except NTAXS and PCA. BMW's are the fanciest, though I can drink from my ER trophies, so that's a plus.
I hope this doesn't become a club-vs-club situation, as that is not my intent, nor is it a good argument (apples/oranges). I simply want to feel like I'm competing against my class when I attend an autox. ER's system prevents that, and I think it'd be a good change to make.
My comments about certain members running in multiple heats have been addressed, so I'll give ER the benefit of the doubt that everyone will play by "fair" standards.
ER is a club with lots of history that does a lot of things very well. They are the only club to take-on the complex challenge of a Rapid Pax event, and it is a cool thing.
I think a lot of people have mistaken ideas about the quality of events being held by NTAXS and BMW, but that's because those peopel haven't been to one since new leadership took over. They are top-notch events now, and have been selling-out in advance lately.
Sorry to derail the thread Andy; I really just wanted to see if the ER system for run/work had been revised. I'll see if I can make it out Sunday.
The more the merrier. Hope to see you there.