Anyone have any advice for fighting a red light camera ticket?

[Keifersmith]

Has anyone successfully fought a red light camera ticket or have any advice for doing so? I got a ticket in Fort Worth on Trinity Blvd a while back and requested a court date. Have to go to court on Dec 23rd.

I initially started to pay the ticket but took a second look at the video and noticed that the yellow light seemed awfully short. As it turns out the yellow light time is set to 3.1 seconds for a 40mph speed limit. Recommended yellow light time per TxDOT is 1 second per every 10mph of speed limit although it’s only mandated to be set somewhere between 3.0-6.0 seconds. So technically 3.1 seconds is a “legal” setting even though it is short (legally it could be set to 3.1 seconds for a 60mph speed limit). I missed “officially” being in the intersection by only a one to two tenths of a second. Had it been set to a 4 sec yellow I would have been almost entirely through the intersection when the light turned red. I travel 11 miles on Trinity and out of curiosity I decided to see what the yellow times were on all the other 20 stoplights along the way. All the other lights followed the TxDOT recommended time and were set to 4.0 seconds with the exception of this one with the red light camera (set to 3.1 seconds).

I’m not expecting to win but it does hack me off that it’s intentionally set low to generate citations. It would be easier to just pay the $75 but if nothing else I’ll chew up $75 worth of court time while they have to listen to me J

I’ve already requested a bunch of records for the stop light settings/maintenance history, citations generated, etc under the open records act. Hopefully I’ll get it back soon.

Any other advice/suggestions/arguments?

[SirHustlerEsq]

We'll see if the court will hear the case, I had a red-light ticket in Denton where you can see my car stopped behind the line, but my options were to pay $60 or go into arbitration with a company in Arizona. I know from my brief experience working with the City of Denton and general municipalities in OK that independant engineers determine a range for each light (and speed limits) and the local government always takes the value most likely to generate income. So I promise you that 3.1 is within the legally acceptable range.

For the record, the yellow light duration at State School Rd and in Denton is absolutely comical at under 2-seconds in length...much like the 30mph speed limit on Dallas drive which is a 6-lane road with a median at roughly 150' across.

[jrj512]

Just pay it.

Yes, they do decrease the yellow if the intersection is not producing enough revenue for the private company that runs it.

[MadMonkey]

My recommendation would be to stop running red lights.

[Keifersmith]

Guess I never came back and updated the status...

Met with the city hearing officer on Dec 23rd. Went over my 10 page powerpoint presentation explaining why a 3.1 second yellow light was not long enough time (per city/state regulations and time/distance to safely stop from 40mph). He said that I made a lot of good points (and he'd never seen anyone so prepared ) but still found me liable for the citation. He did give me the phone number for the lady in the city red light camera office that could explain why it was set to 3.1 seconds and also said that I could appeal his ruling for a trial before a judge.

I called and spoke to the lady about the 3.1 second yellow light and explained what it should be set to per city and state requirements. After a long beatdown explanation from me about it she finally confirmed that they have a chart that they use to set the times and it should have been set to 3.9 seconds which matched what I had told her. She sent out an engineer to evaluate the intersection and they wound up changing the time to 3.9 seconds. I have requested and gotten city maintenance records for the light proving it.

I also appealed the ruling and the court date is set for April 18th. I'm thinking at this point I should have a pretty solid leg to stand on for getting my citation thrown out.

[Rogue]

Skittum, Pit Bull!

[OZMDD]

You probably already realize that the red light tickets do not meet the legal burden of proof in Texas, so they are actually filing a cilvil citation against you, where the BOP is much lower. The upside is that you are not being criminally prosecuted and your insurance/points are unaffected, bad news is that they don't really have to do much to win and you have much less recourse.

I received one for a right turn where I was behind a semi and couldn't see the light turn yellow, (was green when I approached the intersection), then it turned red literally 0.2 sec after I passed the stop line. Also, it was raining, and I was in my pickup. Went to the hearing, conducted by a police officer (conflict of interest??) and was denied. I have yet to pay it. I have challenged the "debt" with the collection agency they gave it to, so they can't put it on my credit till its resolved. They also claim to be able to put a hold on your registration, so I'm going to wait and see if that actually happens when it runs out next month.

[Robert]

I think this shows that the red light cameras are all about making money and not safety as they clam. In order to make more money they make the yellow light too short increasing the chances that people will not be able to stop or stopping very fast causing accidents.

Good job getting them to set it to the proper time.

[redmenace]

After a long beatdown explanation from me about it she finally confirmed that they have a chart that they use to set the times and it should have been set to 3.9 seconds which matched what I had told her. She sent out an engineer to evaluate the intersection and they wound up changing the time to 3.9 seconds. I have requested and gotten city maintenance records for the light proving it.

By any chance do those records show whether the light had been shortened to that 3.1 interval? It sure would be interesting to see if there's a date that corresponds with the camera installation.

[Keifersmith]

They also claim to be able to put a hold on your registration, so I'm going to wait and see if that actually happens when it runs out next month.

Guy I work with failed to pay his. When he got his registration renewal it had "Scofflaw" stamped across the renewal form. They wouldn't let him renew it until he paid off the ticket. Scofflaw LOL!

By any chance do those records show whether the light had been shortened to that 3.1 interval? It sure would be interesting to see if there's a date that corresponds with the camera installation.

According to the records the time has not been modified since the camera was installed. Best I can tell the camera was installed in 2007 but I'm trying to get clarification on that.

[AlanP1964]

I just got a red light camera tax letter in the mail from the lovely city of Bedford. ugh.

[Billy Blaze]

I would say start working towards getting the red light cameras removed through legislation.
It wont help you this time but it will help you the next time as well as others.
just my .02

[SirHustlerEsq]

Good job standing up for liberty and fighting traffic tax tyranny.

[POS Racing]

Now whenever I see Keifersmith I'm going to hear this music in my head!

[cam76034]

Keifer the hammer!

[Keifersmith]

I successfullly stuck it to "the Man"!! Finally had my court date today and the case was dismissed. The hearing office from the red light camera office (that found me liable for the offense back in December) had apparantly kept up with my case and suggested in an email stuck in my case file that they dismiss mine and all the other red light tickets at that intersection during the period that the light was set incorrectly.

Only thing that hacked me off was that after I forced them to change the signal timing back in March was when he wrote the email recommending that my case be dismissed. They didn't bother to actually dismiss the case until I showed up for the court trial today and the prosecutor during the opening remarks suggested that the case be dismissed. My remark to the Judge??... "Not to be disrespectful, but explain to me why I'm sitting here if the case should have been dismissed months ago?". I did get several appologies from the Judge and then we went "off the record" for about 15 minutes and talked about several other "questionable" issues I have concerning the maintenance records for that specific light. Overall, he seemed like a pretty reasonable guy in this case.

[SirHustlerEsq]

I got another one in Denton at Dallas Dr. and Hickory where I yielded to the fire truck.

[Keifersmith]

Yielding to a fire truck is definitely dismissable. Maybe for a small fee I could represent you

I got another one in Denton at Dallas Dr. and Hickory where I yielded to the fire truck.

[jrj512]

Great work, Keith!

[VFR750]

Congrats..........could I get you to represent me on my home apprasial with Dallas County??