SCCA - Street proposal

[general default]

What if the factory bar is larger than 1.6?
I can use exotic materials to get around a 1.6 limit.

I have sent in my letter in support of the class. I asked for a limit of 1.6 in. dia. max. on sway bars.

[Robert]

What if the factory bar is larger than 1.6?
I can use exotic materials to get around a 1.6 limit.

Factory bar would be legal. The rule is for the replacement bar. Do any cars come with a bar lager than 1.6?

Yes any material. Spring steel is pretty strong, I think any advantage of other material would be small.

1.6 in. dia may not be the correct number, but I think we need a limit somewhere if we can change both bars.

What would you suggest to keep the bars from getting crazy? I would be OK with keeping the 1 bar change rule if people think putting a limit is not feasible.

[general default]

I am still waiting for them to say this is all an Aprils Fools Joke.

Factory bar would be legal. The rule is for the replacement bar. Do any cars come with a bar lager than 1.6?

Yes any material. Spring steel is pretty strong, I think any advantage of other material would be small.

1.6 in. dia may not be the correct number, but I think we need a limit somewhere if we can change both bars.

What would you suggest to keep the bars from getting crazy? I would be OK with keeping the 1 bar change rule if people think putting a limit is not feasible.

[OZMDD]

I don't like the max diameter swaybar rule/idea. Not sure what it achieves, other than another item to police. If someone uses exotic material to stay under the rule, it penalizes those who can't afford it. If its open, the playing field remains more level, as I can just go buy some massive steel bar from a truck if you are running your supercarbonfibertorsionflexomatic bar.

[EricJ]

Could the shock only vs. shock and spring be because shocks are a typical wear item that is likely to be replaced on an older car, where the spring is less likely to need to be replaced?

[OZMDD]

That is the origin, as 70's shocks were not long-lived, and it is very hard to police the actual internal characteristics of a shock anyway. I can go buy a set of $4000 internals for my oem shock bodies and have them custom-valved out the yingyang and its going to be extremely difficult to tell that from a visual inspection.

Non-stock springs are pretty easy to identify, either visually or by simply pushing on the car.

[Robert]

Really not worried about exotic material, but I am not a materials expert. What materials do you think that would work better than spring steel for a sway bar? It has to be strong but still twist without breaking. Most of the exotics are used for weight saving. They are a lot stronger than steel by a per lb. basis but not by a volume basis, so not really any help in making a stronger 1 1/2in. dia. sway bar.

If exotics are really a concern then we could add that sway bars have to be metal. Inspecting the dia. is no problem.

[general default]

Robert I guess I should make a better example of the unfairness of the limit 1.6.

I will start with a C-Stock example. First I will preface this with a comment. Since "Street" would allow changes
at both ends and camber it could open up possibilities to a lot of older lighter weight cars to be competitive again.

A lotus Europa runs in C-Stock. The sway bars are small stuff. Lets say 5/8 inch. Yes, it is a light car.
With the rules I could increase the bar size by and additional 1 inch in diameter. Now take a NC with a bar that is 27mm (1 1/16), front stock.
It could be increased about .5 inches. The NC weighs about 1000 pounds more than the Europa.

The point is one car has an advantage in the rule over the other. The small stock bar car can gain more advantage over a larger stock bar car.
In this example almost 50% if the lengths were all the same.

But I guess I was thinking more about F-stock cars. I would think that the new Camaro's and top Mustang products
already have bar approaching 1.6 if not larger??? Who knows what size bars the Dodge SRT8 tanks have.
But let's say they are close to the limit but the Nissan 300zx is not. The 300 ZX would get more advantage out of the swaybar allowance than
the larger heaver car in the class. The 300ZX would really be much better with some camber.

Should there be a limit? I am not sure but I think there is a point that is unique to each car that going over a certain size will reduce
the cars performance and drivability in Solo. That is why I don't think we really need a size limit as the physics will put a limit on the practical size.

Like my example above. I don't think a 1.6 swaybar would work well on a Europa. Just too much. Stronger than the frame. :)

I have a bigger problem with the whole Street concept. Who is the board trying to make happy in this change?
The people that wanted "true stock" cars are saying this is not what we wanted at all. The "Cheap Tire" people are saying great we won but now we have to spend hundreds of dollars on changing my new 2013 Mustang with new sway bars and camber plates.

The simpler solution would be just leave Stock like it is and put r-comps on the exclusion list. That would put stock back like it was 25 years ago. That is why there is an exclusion list. Take away the remote canisters. (thanks I just got mine). Allow 1 bar change at either end.

I don't see Stock being all that broke to toss it in the trash can. I am willing to give up the Hoosiers but I also know that history will repeat it's self on tires.

What if the factory bar is larger than 1.6?
I can use exotic materials to get around a 1.6 limit.

[CosmosMpower]

Robert I guess I should make a better example of the unfairness of the limit 1.6.

I will start with a C-Stock example. First I will preface this with a comment. Since "Street" would allow changes
at both ends and camber it could open up possibilities to a lot of older lighter weight cars to be competitive again.

A lotus Europa runs in C-Stock. The sway bars are small stuff. Lets say 5/8 inch. Yes, it is a light car.
With the rules I could increase the bar size by and additional 1 inch in diameter. Now take a NC with a bar that is 27mm (1 1/16), front stock.
It could be increased about .5 inches. The NC weighs about 1000 pounds more than the Europa.

The point is one car has an advantage in the rule over the other. The small stock bar car can gain more advantage over a larger stock bar car.
In this example almost 50% if the lengths were all the same.

But I guess I was thinking more about F-stock cars. I would think that the new Camaro's and top Mustang products
already have bar approaching 1.6 if not larger??? Who knows what size bars the Dodge SRT8 tanks have.
But let's say they are close to the limit but the Nissan 300zx is not. The 300 ZX would get more advantage out of the swaybar allowance than
the larger heaver car in the class. The 300ZX would really be much better with some camber.

Should there be a limit? I am not sure but I think there is a point that is unique to each car that going over a certain size will reduce
the cars performance and drivability in Solo. That is why I don't think we really need a size limit as the physics will put a limit on the practical size.

Like my example above. I don't think a 1.6 swaybar would work well on a Europa. Just too much. Stronger than the frame. :)

I have a bigger problem with the whole Street concept. Who is the board trying to make happy in this change?
The people that wanted "true stock" cars are saying this is not what we wanted at all. The "Cheap Tire" people are saying great we won but now we have to spend hundreds of dollars on changing my new 2013 Mustang with new sway bars and camber plates.

The simpler solution would be just leave Stock like it is and put r-comps on the exclusion list. That would put stock back like it was 25 years ago. That is why there is an exclusion list. Take away the remote canisters. (thanks I just got mine). Allow 1 bar change at either end.

I don't see Stock being all that broke to toss it in the trash can. I am willing to give up the Hoosiers but I also know that history will repeat it's self on tires.

This man is smart. I like it. Kenny for SCCA Solo Prez.

This post did make me think of something though. If different cars have different weaknesses they should just make you run street tires and let you choose 1 or 2 out of 3 upgrades, choose from upgraded shock, upgraded spring or additional means to gain camber over stock. Might be interesting.

[TexasStig]

I used to run in stock class. But I’ll tell you something: I would only prep my car for TCS. Oh, occasionally CS, but usually TCS – or ST light. Just CS, TCS, ST Lite and STR. Occasionally SP Lite, SM, or perhaps CSP. Oh, sometimes SM-SSM-CSP-DP. . . . But never mod.

[TexasStig]

This man is smart. I like it. Kenny for SCCA Solo Prez.

I concur. Sounds like a grassroots movement starting...

[modernbeat]

You can't limit a swaybar's strength by limiting only the diameter. You have to limit the diameter, the length of the bar and the length of the arms.

But really, there's no need to limit the bar. Mounting is fairly unrestricted, so if you are breaking components because you use an uber-bar, then you also need to upgrade the mounts.

[Robert]

Very good points General.

You brought up a good point about ripping out the mounts if you go to large. That’s my big concern with unlimited bars on both ends. With just one end you can only go so large.

I also hate to agree with you on history repeating itself on tires. The new batch of tires may have crossed the “street tire” line already.

Great, now I am going to have to send another letter.

[Robert]

You can't limit a swaybar's strength by limiting only the diameter. You have to limit the diameter, the length of the bar and the length of the arms.

But really, there's no need to limit the bar. Mounting is fairly unrestricted, so if you are breaking components because you use an uber-bar, then you also need to upgrade the mounts.

The more we talk about it the worse it sounds for the entry level class.

Come run street class, you will need a giant custom bar set, custom mounts, reinforced mounting points so they don’t rip out, camber kits, street tires that are only good for competition.

You are right General.

[jrj512]

Poor Robert, he's not gonna digest right for a week.

[BMcCann]

It's sort of off topic...but I did a NASA-X event a bunch of years ago in a Sky Redline with wider wheels, race cat, intercooler, and tune. I had to go up against Doug Rowse's multi-year national champion E36 DSP machine.

The way I see it, NASA-X could end up being way more expensive because of the trial-and-error to see what will make you the fastest.

[slates]

The more we talk about it the worse it sounds for the entry level class.

Come run street class, you will need a giant custom bar set, custom mounts, reinforced mounting points so they don’t rip out, camber kits, street tires that are only good for competition.

You are right General.

Hey Robert, you forgot the part about slotting your shock towers, and creating an environment where it may be impossible to tell what exactly you did, or thought you did disabling your "traction" aids.

[general default]

I think when I first started running with ER they had a point system like you are describing. That was before Street Prepared existed. Back then they only had 200 people to show up at Nationals. Nationals use to move around to different cities. The first time I heard about Nationals I think it was held in Chicago. The sport has grown a lot since then.

.

... If different cars have different weaknesses they should just make you run street tires and let you choose 1 or 2 out of 3 upgrades, choose from upgraded shock, upgraded spring or additional means to gain camber over stock. Might be interesting.

[OZMDD]

Robert and General are both making excellent points. It does seem that they are overcomplicating a simple plan to get rid of r comps.

[Davidss]

You can't limit a swaybar's strength by limiting only the diameter. You have to limit the diameter, the length of the bar and the length of the arms.

+1

It's easy to make a swaybar stiff if you can run really short arms. My rear bar can go up to roughly 1000lb/in (I know lb/in is not proper when talking about bars) and it is only 1 inch, hollow, and the thinnest wall diameter available. If I were to go to 1.6" and solid that would be over 10,000lb/in.