Dallas Frame and Alignment

[Mathews2004]

In another thread someone was not satified with their service. They have been highly recommended to me by racers and non racers for a performance alignment. Any thoughts or experiences?

[POS Racing]

I used DFW Frame & Alignment, 320 W Pipeline Rd Hurst TX, (817) 285-9007 for the alignment on the POS Racer last year, I feel they did a good job at a fair price. Are these the same guys your asking about Mathews2004??

Well anyhow.... The alignment set-up DFW Frame & Alignment has is old school no fancy digital readouts or computer control. They use the old bubble method. I figure if they are skilled enough to run the equipment they should be able to do a decent alignment. They also didn't care if I sat in the car while it was aligned. I think Tailchaser and onething may not of had satisfactory results, but it worked for me.

On a side note, I got new tires for my '67 Cadillac at Sears, part of the deal I negotiated was an alignment. The kid pulled the car on the fancy all digital alignment machine with its computers and fancy lights. After about 5 minutes the kid backed it off the rack and told the shop manage to give me my money back because my car wasn't in the computers... He wasn’t trained on how to do it manually he could only do an alignment based on what the computer told him! The moral to the story is a skilled alignment man is worth a lot!

YMMV & don't eat the yellow snow!

[Mathews2004]

Different shop.
It is near I35 and Royal Lane.

Dallas Frame & Alignment Co
Address: 2514 Fabens Rd, Dallas, TX 75229
Phone: (972) 241-2361

[sammm]

I used DFW Frame & Alignment, 320 W Pipeline Rd Hurst TX, (817) 285-9007 for the alignment on the POS Racer last year, I feel they did a good job at a fair price.

If you don't mind me asking how much did you pay at DFW F & A?

[Miatamaniac92]

I go to a shop in Irving off of Irving Blvd. Plus a gas station has 94 octane around the corner.

Chris

[onething]

My only complaint with the guys on Pipeline was the setup was not as aggressive as I had before. My guy in Whitehouse uses a computer, lets me sit in the car, and when he's done says, "Take it down the road and see if it is what you want before you pay me."

[POS Racing]

I used DFW Frame & Alignment, 320 W Pipeline Rd Hurst TX, (817) 285-9007 for the alignment on the POS Racer last year, I feel they did a good job at a fair price.

If you don't mind me asking how much did you pay at DFW F & A?

I mind terribly! How dare you ask such a question? :P

It was like $80, I don't remember the exact $$.

[POS Racing]

I go to a shop in Irving off of Irving Blvd.
Chris

What's the name of the place????

[Miatamaniac92]

http://www.ricks-inc.com/ Ricks Auto in Irving

I even got Gary's car done their too. They will let you sit in the car and do it to custom specs. Laser Alingment out the door for 78 bucks if I remember right.

Chris

I go to a shop in Irving off of Irving Blvd.
Chris

What's the name of the place????

[sammm]

All this chatter about alignment has got me thinking. How many of you run 'custom' alignment specs (i.e., Lanny's, FM's, etc.)? If so, explain how it compares to stock while behind the wheel. Do you feel the difference only at the track (AutoX), or on the street as well? Does it really benefit you noticeably at the track and/or the street? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to sort this all out.

[tailchaser]

I think most of us are running Lanny's or similar. It's not MUCH different from a Mazda spec alignment.

Running 1/16th total toe-in in the back is Mazda's recommendation. You want at least this much to make sure you don't have any toe-out. Toe-out in the rear makes things exciting during agressive cornering. I run between 1/8th and 1/4th total toe-in in the back. This will make your car track straighter than an arrow on most highways, and helps keep the rear-end track nicely at the track.

Caster is fairly easy as well. Lanny's alignment calls for the most caster you can get with the most camber you can get in the front. On the street, caster determines how much the wheel likes to return to center. Considering the most you'll get on the Miata is around 4.5 degrees, you're not likely to get so much that steering gets too heavy. On the track, caster *can* affect turn-in, but more importantly it will impact camber during cornering. Given the limited adjustability on the Miata, you're not going to get too much. Iain can undoubtedly illuminate us further on the effects on camber.

Camber on the front is only adjustable to between -.8 and -1.2 depending upon the year your Miata was built. Just get as much as you can and smile. I don't think you can get enough to impact tire wear or contact patch on the street.

Camber on the rear can be a compromise. Generally, more negative camber on the rear helps keep the rear end planted. Too much negative camber (depends on tire, pressure, shocks, phase of the moon) will mean that when accelerating in a straight line (or braking), you're driving on just the inside edge of the tire - not optimal.

Any alignment on a Miata that is *between* factory spec and Lanny's will be far better than the ever popular "mystery alignment." Just make sure you have at least 1/16th total toe-in in the back.

[joe.MIATA]

Hey POS-
Pederson's in F.W. does good work....for about $70. And its' ALTIAIN approved.

[altiain]

I think most of us are running Lanny's or similar. It's not MUCH different from a Mazda spec alignment.

I run a custom alignment based on 2+ years of personal tinkering that doesn't resemble Lanny's much at all, except that all the pluses and minuses are in the same place. I've made one or two compromises in the name of streetability, but the alignment on my car is definitely oriented more for competition driving than one-handed freeway cruising.

Running 1/16th total toe-in in the back is Mazda's recommendation. You want at least this much to make sure you don't have any toe-out. Toe-out in the rear makes things exciting during agressive cornering. I run between 1/8th and 1/4th total toe-in in the back. This will make your car track straighter than an arrow on most highways, and helps keep the rear-end track nicely at the track.

I haven't got the faintest idea what Mazda's factory recommended specs are, so I'll have to take tailchaser's word for it.

Toe-out in the rear is not a good idea on a rwd car. Some fwd cars tinker with rear toe-out in order to help induce rotation, but that's a whole different story.

Rear toe has very little effect on a car's tracking ability or directional stability - that is affected to a much greater degree by front toe settings. In the front, many autocrossers will recommend 1/16"-1/8" total toe-out, which will aid turn-in, but sacrifice directional stability. I've tried 1/8" total toe out on my car, and it makes freeway lane discipline a two-handed, white-knuckle affair. 1/16" total toe-out up front is probably a better compromise setting, but it will still make the car feel a little "darty" at freeway speeds. Personally I run 0 toe up front, and accept the slight loss of turn-in in exchange for the added freeway stability I get, since mine is a daily freeway commuter.

At the rear, toe-in will help minimize looseness or oversteer. The more you add, the more stable the rear end of the car will be, but too much can induce unwanted understeer. Also be aware that running aggressive toe settings at either end of the car will greatly decrease your tire life, as a tire that is toed-in or toed-out is quite literally sliding or scuffing down the road ever so slightly, since the tire's axis of rotation is no longer perpendicular to the car's direction of travel.

Caster is fairly easy as well. Lanny's alignment calls for the most caster you can get with the most camber you can get in the front. On the street, caster determines how much the wheel likes to return to center. Considering the most you'll get on the Miata is around 4.5 degrees, you're not likely to get so much that steering gets too heavy. On the track, caster *can* affect turn-in, but more importantly it will impact camber during cornering. Given the limited adjustability on the Miata, you're not going to get too much. Iain can undoubtedly illuminate us further on the effects on camber.

The technical definition of caster is the angle at which the steering knuckle's axis of rotation is inclined with regard to the vertical, as viewed from the side of the vehicle. Increasing caster will do three things - first, it will increase steering effort, as a car with any castor is slightly lifting the entire front end as the wheels turn. Secondly, it will increase the amount of camber gain as steering input increases, again because the wheel is no longer rotating about a vertical axis centered on the knuckle, but instead a slightly inclined axis. Lastly, it will increase the rate at which the steering self-corrects, or self-centers. For example, in my car (with a lot of caster and no hydraulics in the steering system to slow response time down), I can hang the tail out around a corner, let go of the steering wheel, and watch the steering wheel whip around to steer the front wheels in the direction of travel almost instantly. It's kinda cool, actually.

To better visualize, look at the front end of a go-cart, the next time you're in one. Go carts have no suspension travel, and they typically have little or no camber "built in". However, they have a lot of caster, which is what gives a go-cart any camber at all while turning. It is also why - if you're sitting in a stationary go-cart and you turn the steering wheel - the front end lifts up - you're quite literally raising the car up on the inside edge of the outside tire and the outside edge of the inside tire.

The key to caster is to have enough to get decent camber gains with steering input, while not making the steering effort too heavy. I've experimented with everything from 5+ degrees of caster (steering was waaay too heavy, especially without power assist), to less than 3.5 degrees (light steering effort, front end didn't feel like it had as much grip in corners as it did using higher caster). I generally use somewhere between 4-4.5 degrees.

The only other thing to remember about caster is that it's a tradeoff in the front end of the Miata. To get more static camber, sometimes you have to give up a little caster. It's up to you how much you're willing to give up to get whatever static front camber you're after.

Camber on the front is only adjustable to between -.8 and -1.2 depending upon the year your Miata was built. Just get as much as you can and smile. I don't think you can get enough to impact tire wear or contact patch on the street.

Well, let's just say that range applies to most, but not all, Miatas. There are some legal - but time consuming - tricks that can be employed to increase that range a bit. Mine has quite a bit more than -1.2 degrees up front, and it's all legal. You're welcome to protest it if you want - it's your money, after all. :P

Negative camber is a positive thing, at least in the relatively limited range you can get with factory suspension components. The more the better, and you'll definitely want at least -1.0 degrees up front in my opinion, even if you have to give up a little caster to get there.

One more caveat - the more negative camber your car has in the front, the more sensitive it will be to road irregularities. There are certain roads in my area that are uneven or grooved from heavy traffic that I know I have to keep both hands on the wheel while driving down.

Camber on the rear can be a compromise. Generally, more negative camber on the rear helps keep the rear end planted. Too much negative camber (depends on tire, pressure, shocks, phase of the moon) will mean that when accelerating in a straight line (or braking), you're driving on just the inside edge of the tire - not optimal.

The generally accepted wisdom is that running a half degree more negative camber in the rear than the front (i.e., -1.5 in the rear if you have -1.0 in the front) in the Miata is a good starting point for neutral handling. However, this isn't carved in stone, can be affected by numerous other factors (like those tailchaser listed), and varies from car to car, since the tolerances in no two Miatas stack up exactly the same. However, as a rule of thumb, runnning a higher camber split front-to-rear will decrease oversteer (or increase understeer), and running a lower camber split front-to-rear will have the opposite effect. I'd start with a half degree split on a car, figure out how it responds, then adjust accordingly, retest, readjust, etc. Welcome to the world of grassroots racers, where if you don't like this alignment just wait - you'll be getting another one soon. I average 3 alignments a year, just trying different settings, or realigning after driving over potholes on course at Mineral Wells.

From the factory, the Miata can typically get over 2 degrees of negative camber in the rear. You likely won't need that much, as the limiting factor is almost always the maximum amount of front camber you can get.

Any alignment on a Miata that is *between* factory spec and Lanny's will be far better than the ever popular "mystery alignment." Just make sure you have at least 1/16th total toe-in in the back.

Agreed. I sent the following specs to gabkwong, and I'd recommend them as a good starting point on any Miata. Chances are you'll change some of the settings in the future to suit your own car and driving style, but it's a good place to start:

FRONT
4.5 degrees caster

-1.0 degrees camber (you might not be able to get this much. If not, set the front camber to the max you can get equally on BOTH sides - in other words, if one side can get -1.1 and the other side can only get -0.8, set both sides to -0.8 )

0 toe


REAR
-1.5 degrees camber (Actually, you should set the rear camber at 0.5 degrees more negative than the maximum the front could get. In other words, if the max at the front is -0.8, then the rear should be set at -1.3. Having more than a 0.5 degree camber split mayl make the car push in steady-state corners)

1/16" toe-IN per side (1/8" total toe-IN)

Hope some of this makes sense - hey, do I get some kind of award for the longest post so far on this board? I don't think even kestrel has been this long-winded yet!

Iain

[sammm]

Hope some of this makes sense - hey, do I get some kind of award for the longest post so far on this board? I don't think even kestrel has been this long-winded yet!
Iain

I think you've got the record by a mile! Thanks for all the info tailchaser and altiain! I'll keep reading and try to absorb all of this! :P

[Majik]

Iain, where do you go, and who does it? I went to petersons, a while back and the guy wouldnt let me sit in the car. He said it didnt make a difference. He still got the specs I want, but I suppose they change when I get in. Also when you get it in the car, doesnt it make the rear toe out? Maybe that is why my car is horribly loose.

[altiain]

Iain, where do you go, and who does it? I went to petersons, a while back and the guy wouldnt let me sit in the car. He said it didnt make a difference. He still got the specs I want, but I suppose they change when I get in. Also when you get it in the car, doesnt it make the rear toe out? Maybe that is why my car is horribly loose.

I use DFW Frame & Alignment and Peterson's interchangeably. Peterson's is cheaper, DFW Frame is closer to where I live and takes appointments. Which one I use depdnds on how much time or money I have when it's alignment time.

I've never had Art or Jim not let me sit in the car at Peterson's. Maybe they can sense that I'd just go somewhere else if they wouldn't? I don't know.

And actually, the rear suspension is designed to toe-in under load. If your car is loose, you might want to try a higher camber split or a little more rear toe-in next time, or fiddle with your tire pressures. What kind of sway bars are you using?

Iain

[Majik]

I have stock suspension non sport package everywhere. I have a set of AGXs on the UPS truck now. With the next paycheck or two I am going to get a FM front sway bar, and a set of FM springs. Around may or mid may, I hope to get a set of Victoracers to finish out the car for now... Not the best package, but fairly cheap, and right now just about as much as I can afford. Just to see if I eek in on the cheap bastard plan, I did get the AGXs off of ebay for 306 shipped.... brand new.

[Mark52]

I use Petersons. True, they won't let you sit in the car anymore because of insurance concerns, but I bring along some ballast to put in the drivers side to compensate. Jim West, the allignment guy is great to work with, although the owner (Jr.?) is kind of a snot

[Mathews2004]

I will be the test subject for Dallas Frame and Alignment after I get my shocks in. Should be fairly convenient for you Dallas and North side people. Like I said in the original post they have a good rep. I think they do a lot of "P" cars. Iain, maybe some of the porsche club guys would have a review?

[joe.MIATA]

the allignment guy is great to work with, although the owner (Jr.?) is kind of a snot

I found the same to be true. Next time I will bring ballast... :pig: